The torch arrived on Chinas Olympic Plane this morning - Olympic torch arrives in Australia

I cannot but help think with the Tibetan protests that have taken centre stage there was some irony in another race of people who have gone through and are still going through hard times being represented and offering a message stick to the Chinese with peace being to the fore.

Tibetans and protest movements see it as a great opportunity to try and ridicule/condemn the Chinese Government on Tibetan policies/activities and not a great deal is known in Australia about what happens there or for that matter too much anywhere in China other than what makes news.

Mike is currently working in Beijing and he may want to advise on how the regular Chinese views are on the torch protests and upcoming Olympics generally.

The prominent views we are getting in media here Mike could fall into two camps
. The excitement of Chinese and their being disturbed by the Tibetan protests, and in that a Tibetan Museum has been created in Beijing I think, the media report I saw was one of it being a whitewash if you like, a showing that there is ancient dynasty evidence that supports Chinas sovereignty over Tibet - so perhaps a bit hard for the average Chinese to have an alternate view or not want to declare it.

. And then there has been media footage of older community housing being bulldozed and old people being left without a home.

Does your working/living there Mike give you an opportunity to see what is occurring on the ground there and have contact with sufficient Chinese to get a feel for the mood of the nation?

Yes, I am in Beijing at the moment. I have to say it is an interesting time to be here right now. So much is going on with construction and events, but also so much is happening politically. I have a lot of mixed feelings about China, Tibet, the Chinese government, socialism/capitalism in China, democracy and so on.

There are many things I don't like what happens here, but in some ways I think China does get a little too much negative press in western media. Tibetans have every right to protest China and the Olympics, but it is the Hollywood movie stars and everyone else who comes out to protest that annoys me.

I came to China 10 years ago and so much has changed since then, mostly for the better. China will change slowly, in their own time. Trying to force them to change though, only makes them seem to dig their heals in.

I think Chinese are excited and proud that the games will be hosted in their country. Of course there are some complaints about rising prices and more traffic - not to mention the poor people who lost their homes.

I just hope the torch relay leg in Australia will be peaceful and protesters respect the rights of the torch bearers to run their leg without the fear of violence.

I think you are on the money Mike in that China will change at their pace driven from within in how they want to further engage with the global economies for they are already a dominant force and just growing stronger in that respect.
Whilst we may not agree with their politics and human rights on what we hear, I also think that with film stars and other governments attacking their activities/record there is something of a tall poppy syndrome or fear of China becoming the new world super power, that certainly having been expressed by the US.

On the Olympics, I believe that Politics and Sport should be kept apart and that the latter can and should be used to ease political tensions rather than create them - be far better to decide a dispute with a footy match than shooting bullets.
Where it went wrong I feel was in the Politics of Sport some seven years back when the IOC thought there may be some benefits in Beijing having the Olympics, but that's water under the bridge.

You will be pleased to know that the Torch relay in Canberra went off very well with only a few minor distractions, quite possibly an advantage of us still being far enough from more heavily populated areas of the globe.
A lot of Chinese students apparently bussed into Canberra from Melbourne and Sydney to far outnumber Tibetans who walked from Bungendore and who were decidedly generally peaceful.

TV footage gave the impression the students and other "pro Chinese" (says it in one) were there for a China rant more so than celebrating the torch relay or Olympics and away from the relay it seemed there was intent to give the Tibetans a hard time of it but no significant violence reported, and only seven arrests.

All I see is smiling stupid faces enjoying the TORCH as if it is some special GOD ICON and people making out they are so THRILLED to be able to run with a burning stick thru the streets of Canberra.
Have any of you fellow Aussies got any integrity left in your bronzed burnt brains?
China is doing the Kangaroo all over you and you do not even recognize that penetration has already occurred.
Where is the Australian that had a conscience and would see what the hell is happening outside their BBQ area?

WAKE UP AUSTRALIA!!! The Chinese are killing thousands of people all over the world by their support for government regimes that commit atrocities like in Sudan and the butchered people of Darfour and what do Australians do? They are so concerned about how many GOLD medals they will win. Well I got news for you people - every gold medal will have hundreds of dead people's blood all over them - so enjoy your victories and have a few beers while you are at it.

Changing China slowly is like saying let the people eat arsonic with their cake.
Letting China regulate itself is like saying 'Adolf baby - have a good ten years killing jews while we talk' or 'Stalin my dear - build those Siberian labor camps quickly while we discuss the weather' WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON IN AUSTRALIA? That is not the Oz I grew up in!!!!
So glad I am in Europe because if that is the general attitude of Australians then I am glad I work over here.

Australia and Australians are benefiting so much from China's growing economy by supplying them with the resources they need to develop. So when it comes to China, you won't hear any protests from the business community. While other economies are floundering, Australia's economy is still growing.

Is China the only country selling arms in Africa? I really don't think so. I am not making excuses for China, the arms trade is global and China is in no way the only player.

Kevin Rudd has a lot of respect in China, so he might be the one who can use his influence to promote change.

Do Europeans think anything will actually happen in China if their leaders don't attend the Olympics?

Australians love sports and the Olympics. Australia invests a bit of money in helping athletes train, so it is not surprising they want to see some results. None of the athletes chose the location of the Olympics, so what can they do? Are they going to risk years of training by trying to stage a protest that will do nothing but create further unnecessary controversy.

I think Australia's foreign policy over the years has been fairly active in the region. For years we have had to deal with Indonesia. The outcomes are not always great, but I don't think Australia just sits back and does nothing.

Well, welcome to the forum kasperle and as to the smiling faces and the thrill that those have in carrying a torch, there will always be those who get some enjoyment from the occasion and not just in Australia but wherever the relay is for it is probably as close as the majority will ever get to the Olympics other than watching, listening or reading of events.
If some older athletes, citizens of renown or celebs get a kick out of carrying a torch and it enhances peoples enjoyment, then so be it.

You do not want to dictate like a dictator do you that enjoyment can only come from aspects of life that you determine - you might as well join the blood letting if you do, and neither Mike nor I are ignorant of the politics of China and the globe:
As Mike indicates, arms supplying companies come from all parts including the US and France to mention a couple.
Also as Mike has indicated, there are economic factors and not trading with China is not going to change what policies the Chinese government has abroad as much as we may not like them, and regardless of whether we have a PM who speaks Mandarin, yes Australia other than being a supply of natural resources for them is not much more than a fly on their back when it comes to anything they may want to do.
But do European nations not do Trade with China?, hardly think not and should Australia and other foreign nations declare war on China?
Perhaps something of a trade embargo could be applied!, spin the globe into recession quicker than what is happening.

So in the doom and gloom about the globe, the torch may not provide the ray of enlightenment that we would wish for, and China may not be a beast that we wish to have but there have been all manner of beasts before and during our lifetimes and more will come along afterwards no doubt too and we all soldier on the best we can enjoying a BBQ while we can and you enjoy Europe the best you can too.

It is a symbol that most people love to see and the thrill of seeing the torch is powerful. It's a grand, awaited event and some choose to turn their minds off for a while, and I don't really blame them.

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