Immigrants already being exploited in Australia - Page 2

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Immigrants already being exploited in Australia - Page 2


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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 06-02-2012, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by danielrm View Post
Why don't you feel what I describe is a racism issue.

Also what are you implying by "Besides, nobody forces immigrants to come here and stay"? Are you saying immigrants deserve to have wages stolen from them, their conditions changed and their safety jeopardized because they weren't forced to come here and can leave if they want?

Also on the first line of your 2 line post, you state that's you agree its not a racism issue and then on the second line you seem to be blaming the immigrants for the discrimination (even though you don't think its a race discrimination issue) for coming to Australia and staying.

What I think he is traying to say is the following:
  • It doesnt make it a racism issue simply because you decided it is so.
  • It doesnt seem the subjects themselves thought it is a racism issue, because they did not support your claims
  • There are plenty of choices out there (in Australia) so if that was "racism" they can simply leave the organisation and get another job
  • If they are still keeping these roles they are happy with the job, and your choice to "force" the racism tag on it doesnt seem to be supported by anyone but you
  • Finally if Australia was that terrible there is always the legal right to claim refuge in more tolerant Saudi Arabia, South Africa, Japan, Russia to name a few. Or to chose to immigrate to any of these more tolerant nations rather than Australia
  • The choice to come to Australia is made by a person, which means it is much better here than any other place, so there is no point in coming if this is such a terrible place. It doesn’t mean Australia is not welcoming, but people are not forced to come here are they? They make an educated and calculated choice to be here. And there is always a fantastic choice to go back!

Every person has the will and the power to change the situation they are in, it is not like Railcorp is the only employer on an absolutely isolated island with nowhere to go. Just because you made the call it is a "racism" issue doesn't mean it is true. It still looks like a bunch of people who might be rotting the system, and possibly should be reported to ATO and fined!


Last edited by Boboa; 06-02-2012 at 07:13 AM.

  #12 (permalink)  
Old 06-02-2012, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Boboa View Post
What I think he is traying to say is the following:
  • It doesnt make it a racism issue simply because you decided it is so.
  • It doesnt seem the subjects themselves thought it is a racism issue, because they did not support your claims
  • There are plenty of choices out there (in Australia) so if that was "racism" they can simply leave the organisation and get another job
  • If they are still keeping these roles they are happy with the job, and your choice to "force" the racism tag on it doesnt seem to be supported by anyone but you
  • Finally if Australia was that terrible there is always the legal right to claim refuge in more tolerant Saudi Arabia, South Africa, Japan, Russia to name a few. Or to chose to immigrate to any of these more tolerant nations rather than Australia
  • The choice to come to Australia is made by a person, which means it is much better here than any other place, so there is no point in coming if this is such a terrible place. It doesn’t mean Australia is not welcoming, but people are not forced to come here are they? They make an educated and calculated choice to be here. And there is always a fantastic choice to go back!

Every person has the will and the power to change the situation they are in, it is not like Railcorp is the only employer on an absolutely isolated island with nowhere to go. Just because you made the call it is a "racism" issue doesn't mean it is true. It still looks like a bunch of people who might be rotting the system, and possibly should be reported to ATO and fined!
No he said - "Neither do I" and then "Besides, Nobody forces immigrants to come here and stay". Your list is just a list of your own personal opinions and biases.

Your List:

1. You are correct. It doesn't make it a racism issue because I say it is a racism issue. It makes it a racism issue because people are being hired, paid, treated and fired differently based on their immigrant status.

2. They didn't support my claims because Workcover refused to interview them.

3. If there is discrimination in the workplace the employee should not have to "put up with it or get another job". Why? Because that's what the law says.

4. You assume the only reason someone would stay in a job is because they are happy with it. You completely ignore things like requirement to pay bills and the difficulty inherent in obtaining other employment as an immigrant in Australia.

5 and 6 I don't think are even worth responding to.


  #13 (permalink)  
Old 06-02-2012, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by danielrm View Post
No he said - "Neither do I" and then "Besides, Nobody forces immigrants to come here and stay". Your list is just a list of your own personal opinions and biases.

Your List:

1. You are correct. It doesn't make it a racism issue because I say it is a racism issue. It makes it a racism issue because people are being hired, paid, treated and fired differently based on their immigrant status.

2. They didn't support my claims because Workcover refused to interview them.

3. If there is discrimination in the workplace the employee should not have to "put up with it or get another job". Why? Because that's what the law says.

4. You assume the only reason someone would stay in a job is because they are happy with it. You completely ignore things like requirement to pay bills and the difficulty inherent in obtaining other employment as an immigrant in Australia.

5 and 6 I don't think are even worth responding to.
You cannot see a simple flaw in your argument

1. Who decided that people are treated differently? It doesn't mean they are treated differently just because you say or believe so.

2. They did not support your claims because they did not choose to go to workcover and complain. Again, just because you believe something is wrong and complain doesn't make it an absolute fact. Workcover takes these claims seriously and they launched an investigation, but it doesn't seem they found something worthy further action. Great respect goes to workcover for being such an organisation that would launch a full investigation from a complain, if anything this proves to me that they are a professional and honest organisation.

3. That is correct, but because a certain person claims there is a discrimination, doesn't mean that is the case. Railcorp might be, in my opinion, a corrupt waste of taxpayers money however that needs to be proved, if I just start telling people about that doesn't mean that makes it an indisputable fact.

4. I assume people would do something if they are unhappy, you ignore the fact that if people do nothing about it means they are happy with whatever status or situation they are in.

5 and 6 It is your right to decide what is worth or not for you, I respect that right. Unfortunately not everyone respects the right of others to use their own judgement and values to the situation they are in. Some people would actually try to force their own criteria of what is worth or not worth, and what is racism or not. A simple right of every human being is to use their right and their own judgment on issues affecting their life, without other people making decisions on their behalf.


Last edited by Boboa; 06-02-2012 at 08:12 AM.

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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 06-02-2012, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Boboa View Post
You cannot see a simple flaw in your argument

1. Who decided that people are treated differently? It doesn't mean they are treated differently just because you say or believe so.

2. They did not support your claims because they did not choose to go to workcover and complain, meaning they are happy about it. Again, just because you believe something is wrong and complain doesn't make it an absolute fact. Workcover takes these claims seriously and they launched an investigation, but it doesn't mean they will trust your judgement as ultimate truth.

3. That is correct, but because a certain person claims there is a discrimination, doesn't mean that is the case. Railcorp might be, in my opinion, a corrupt waste of taxpayers money however that needs to be proved, if I just start telling people about that doesn't mean that makes it an indisputable fact.

4. I assume people would do something if they are unhappy, you ignore the fact that if people do nothing about it means they are happy with whatever status or situation they are in.

5 and 6 It is your right to decide what is worth or not for you, I respect that right. Unfortunately not everyone respects the right of others to use their own judgement and values to the situation they are in. Some people would actually try to force their own criteria of what is worth or not worth, and what is racism or not on you.
1. The law decided they are treated differently. The law says you are treated differently if you are vilified (for example called "blackie" or "darkie" by a supervisor), paid differently (for example 14-18 per hour casual) compared to the Australians (24-38 per hour permanent with penalties, holidays and sick days) or treated differently (fired because you're African and in the lunch room).

2. They did not go to Workcover because they are afraid complaining will cause them to lose their jobs, not because they are happy. You were not given any information which could lead you to conclude the Workcover investigation was conducted properly or that they did not complain because they were happy. You made that up yourself.

3. Who said anything about indisputable facts, I provided you with facts (what I personally saw and experienced), I then provided you with my opinion of why they happened (racism) and backed it up with what the law says happened based on those facts I provided being correct (People were discriminated against because they received in-equal treatment based on their ethnicity).

4. You ignore other factors which might influence people to do nothing even if they are not happy (financial situation, job market, marketability of job-seeker)


  #15 (permalink)  
Old 06-02-2012, 12:09 PM
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Baboa.

I don't agree with your point below...........

"4. I assume people would do something if they are unhappy, you ignore the fact that if people do nothing about it means they are happy with whatever status or situation they are in. "

You mentioned in one of your posts -if am not mistaken- ,that you yourself, happened to have lived in one of the countries where there was alot of racism. Then you are in the better position to understand that people might not always keep their current jobs because they are "happy with it." There are many other factors involved


  #16 (permalink)  
Old 06-02-2012, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Zamaussie View Post
Baboa.

I don't agree with your point below...........

"4. I assume people would do something if they are unhappy, you ignore the fact that if people do nothing about it means they are happy with whatever status or situation they are in. "

You mentioned in one of your posts -if am not mistaken- ,that you yourself, happened to have lived in one of the countries where there was alot of racism. Then you are in the better position to understand that people might not always keep their current jobs because they are "happy with it." There are many other factors involved
Zamaussie I agree with, wholly and absolutely. The difference is I absolutely refuse the tendency to use the "racist" card in, what is in my opinion, a fair society. Australian government and people take racism very seriously and they fight it whenever it pops its ugly head up! It is not the fear of being persecuted or being imprisoned that stops people from fighting racism, like in other countries. So if there are so many protection agencies around you can blaim only yourself for what is happening


I think the racism card is abused to the degree it became sickening. If you have awful English skills and you apply for a job and you dont get it, what is it "The employee is racist". If the policeman pulls you over, he is racist! If somebody passes you the flu, for god sake, they are racist......

I'm just absolutely tired of that, and I think it is unfair for this country which believes in a "fair go" for everyone to be labeled with this label.


  #17 (permalink)  
Old 06-02-2012, 10:59 PM
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Daniel...

The issue is a Railcop issue and not much of immigrant issue in Australia. Yes, there are companies/organizations in Australia that will pay less to immigrants. Legally, it is perfectly ok - company can offer whatever salary they find appropriate. The final word belongs to the employee. After all, immigrants always have an option of not accepting the job or choosing another one (and many of them do so). Still, this is hardly racism. It is more like capitalism in its true form.

The bigger issue (common for Australia) is how those Indians, Pakistani, Africans exploit other Indians, Pakistani, Africans paying them below national minimum wage. So it is mostly other immigrants exploiting those more vulnerable immigrants. Small shops, paying cash to hand only, no super, $10 per hour or less etc. This is something that should be looked into and is more of an immigrant issue than what you described.

As I said - nobody forces immigrants to come to Australia and stay. If they are not happy, they can move to another job, another city, another country. And I know many that did. Instead, many of them decide to accept what is being done to them. I am an immigrant myself and I did something with the problem in the past. I was being exploited by other immigrants too (never by Australians!). Some companies paid me less money, some paid me more. When I felt underpaid, I looked for another job and once I found it - I just left the one that did not meet my expectations.

Besides, tell me. If I - as an employer - have an immigrant without local experience, who is applying for a job and I know they will accept $45k p/a - why would I pay them $60k p/a? I can as well hire them at $45k and if they prove good at her work, I can give them a raise to $60k after 1 - 2 years. They will be happy to get raise and I will risk less money.

Quote:
The law says you are treated differently if you are vilified (for example called "blackie" or "darkie" by a supervisor), paid differently (for example 14-18 per hour casual) compared to the Australians (24-38 per hour permanent with penalties, holidays and sick days) or treated differently (fired because you're African and in the lunch room).
I actually had a case when my wife (Chinese) was a victim of discrimination by a RailCorp officer at one of the Sydney train stations. He threw a few stupid (although hardly offensive) comments. One of them was something like. "Oh... Chinese always go to Hurstville". Those comments cost the guy his job which he lost a week after we lodged a phone complaint with the head office.

The point is, that if you do something about the problem, you will see some result. Most of those exploited immigrants do not do a thing about it.

Salaries are often based on experience, references, position and predicted opportunities - not where you come from. Also, it is quite obvious that a permanent full timer will be paid more than a casual. It is logical and absolutely right. How many of these casuals actually attempt to apply for a permanent full time either at Railcorp or somewhere else? I am pretty sure not many - given that they usually try to snatch money from a few jobs at once and therefore, it would be inconvenient for them to have permanent employment with fixed working hours.

All in all - it is not racism to be blamed for what is happening but rules of capitalistm which allows this.


Last edited by Dexter; 06-02-2012 at 11:09 PM.

  #18 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2012, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexter View Post
Daniel...

The issue is a Railcop issue and not much of immigrant issue in Australia. Yes, there are companies/organizations in Australia that will pay less to immigrants. Legally, it is perfectly ok - company can offer whatever salary they find appropriate. The final word belongs to the employee. After all, immigrants always have an option of not accepting the job or choosing another one (and many of them do so). Still, this is hardly racism. It is more like capitalism in its true form.

The bigger issue (common for Australia) is how those Indians, Pakistani, Africans exploit other Indians, Pakistani, Africans paying them below national minimum wage. So it is mostly other immigrants exploiting those more vulnerable immigrants. Small shops, paying cash to hand only, no super, $10 per hour or less etc. This is something that should be looked into and is more of an immigrant issue than what you described.

As I said - nobody forces immigrants to come to Australia and stay. If they are not happy, they can move to another job, another city, another country. And I know many that did. Instead, many of them decide to accept what is being done to them. I am an immigrant myself and I did something with the problem in the past. I was being exploited by other immigrants too (never by Australians!). Some companies paid me less money, some paid me more. When I felt underpaid, I looked for another job and once I found it - I just left the one that did not meet my expectations.

Besides, tell me. If I - as an employer - have an immigrant without local experience, who is applying for a job and I know they will accept $45k p/a - why would I pay them $60k p/a? I can as well hire them at $45k and if they prove good at her work, I can give them a raise to $60k after 1 - 2 years. They will be happy to get raise and I will risk less money.



I actually had a case when my wife (Chinese) was a victim of discrimination by a RailCorp officer at one of the Sydney train stations. He threw a few stupid (although hardly offensive) comments. One of them was something like. "Oh... Chinese always go to Hurstville". Those comments cost the guy his job which he lost a week after we lodged a phone complaint with the head office.

The point is, that if you do something about the problem, you will see some result. Most of those exploited immigrants do not do a thing about it.

Salaries are often based on experience, references, position and predicted opportunities - not where you come from. Also, it is quite obvious that a permanent full timer will be paid more than a casual. It is logical and absolutely right. How many of these casuals actually attempt to apply for a permanent full time either at Railcorp or somewhere else? I am pretty sure not many - given that they usually try to snatch money from a few jobs at once and therefore, it would be inconvenient for them to have permanent employment with fixed working hours.

All in all - it is not racism to be blamed for what is happening but rules of capitalistm which allows this.
" is how those Indians, Pakistani, Africans"
"nobody forces immigrants to come to Australia and stay"
"Most of those exploited immigrants"
"given that they usually try to"

The above are almost picture perfect examples of generalized racial stereotyping.

There were also serious errors in your post -

It is not "perfectly ok" for employers to pay whatever they like, there are minimum statutory wages and then usually for each industry an industry award which prohibits paying less then the prescribed amount.

Casual workers always get higher pay per hour than full time permanent (20 to 30 per cent more)


  #19 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2012, 10:27 AM
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This is what law states about national minimum wage and payments. As you can see, there is no regulation that says that employee needs to be offered particular money (obviously nothing below national minimum) or particular percentage more than a full timer if they are a casual. You may be mentioning this because of some Union agreements in Australia - like the one between SDA and Coles Group in regards to payments in supermarkets and department stores. Although again - company has a freedom of offering more money to some employees and less employees to some other.

Paying casuals $18 per hour is completely legal. Paying casuals $14 per hour is not legal (unless you are referring to rate after tax - because minimum $15.51 is before tax). Also, I have gone through awards related to Rail agreements in Australia and here is what I found

[urlhttps://extranet.deewr.gov.au/ccmsv8/CiLiteKnowledgeDetailsFrameset.htm?KNOWLEDGE_REF=9 0977&TYPE=X&ID=1486507489215229288889912894&DOCUME NT_REF=244837&DOCUMENT_TITLE=Railways%20Traffi c,%20Permanent%20Way%20and%20Signalling%20Wages%20 Staff%20Award%202002&DOCUMENT_CODE=AP817741[/url]

It says the following

Quote:
18. GUARANTEED PAYMENT

18.1 Except as provided in subclauses 18.4 and 18.5 an employee who is ready and willing and available for all work offering shall be paid each fortnight an amount equivalent to the number of hours prescribed herein at the ordinary rate of wage for their grade. In satisfaction of such guaranteed payment there shall be included all wages paid to the employee within the first ten shifts excluding the following:

18.1.1 Employees on the running staff other than guard/second person

18.1.1(a) penalties for shift work and for Saturday time, public holidays and for Sunday time; and

18.1.1(b) any allowance representing the difference between the classified rate and the ordinary rate applicable whilst acting in a higher grade.

18.1.2 All other employees except casuals and guards/second persons:

18.1.2(a) penalties for shift work and for overtime, Saturday time, public holidays and Sunday time; and

18.1.2(b) any allowance representing the difference between the classified rate and the ordinary rate applicable whilst acting in a higher grade.

18.1.2(c) if earnings in the first ten shifts fall short of the guaranteed minimum then payment for up to four hours of an 11th shift with penalty at time and one half may be used.

18.2 Where through genuine illness or approved leave, payment less than the guaranteed minimum becomes due to an employee, payment shall be made at the guaranteed minimum less the amount which would have accrued due to the employee had they performed any duty available to them during the period of such absence. If the latter amount cannot be determined the deduction shall be of one day’s pay in respect of each day’s absence.

18.3 Where an employee is absent from duty without pay on account of other than genuine illness or approved leave, the guarantee shall not apply and payment will be made for time actually worked within the period.

18.4 The provisions of this Guarantee clause do not apply to Casual employees
Again - no word about 20 - 30% that you ask for. Employees will be offered different salaries depending on their experience and individual negotiations between employer and employee.


Quote:
The above are almost picture perfect examples of generalized racial stereotyping.
Read my e-mail properly first... There are things happening to immigrants in particular described in there (not just Indians, Pakistani or Africans). If you don't want to open your eyes to see the other side of the story - your choice.

Have you reported the events to Fair Work / Industrial Relations? Given how confident you are about being right, I would say you should...


  #20 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2012, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by danielrm View Post
" is how those Indians, Pakistani, Africans"
"nobody forces immigrants to come to Australia and stay"
"Most of those exploited immigrants"
"given that they usually try to"

The above are almost picture perfect examples of generalized racial stereotyping.

There were also serious errors in your post -

It is not "perfectly ok" for employers to pay whatever they like, there are minimum statutory wages and then usually for each industry an industry award which prohibits paying less then the prescribed amount.

Casual workers always get higher pay per hour than full time permanent (20 to 30 per cent more)
While desire to help others is commendable; it is clear that you have an extremely tunnelled vision. It is always easy blame someone for issues happening around you, actually getting to a degree where you blame someone for "generaliz[S]ed racial stereotyping" just because they don't agree with you is not a way to win an argument.


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