Immigrants already being exploited in Australia - Page 3

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Immigrants already being exploited in Australia - Page 3


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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2012, 01:33 PM
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@Dexter

The Award is the Security Industry Award 2010. I don't know of any industry or group where permanent employee's get more per hour than casuals; I doubt it exists. The casual loading is 25%.

I did read your post however what I was commenting on was the way you were stereotyping based on race. You were also jumping to conclusions based purely on your opinion of why an entire segment of the community did certain things (as an example had multiple jobs).

@Boboa

I called it generalized racial stereotyping because that is what its classified as. If I say "all Aussies are racist" then I am stereotyping Australians. If I say "all Indian's work multiple jobs and don't want full time employment" then I am stereotyping Indians based on race. Both of the statements are stereotyping and obviously incorrect. This is an accepted fact, not an accusation.

I think the best thing to do is to agree to disagree. I feel both of you guys are a little biased in your thinking and not likely to reevaluate your positions.


  #22 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2012, 09:09 PM
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Daniel...

From your comments I am pretty sure that you don't really know how immigrant's life really looks. You are just focusing on the idea that everyone is just generalizing, stereotypes, racism etc. Both me and Boboa are immigrants and both of us (I am pretty sure Boboa did so too) went through that casual stage in their immigrant life. We both are writing about it because we know it does exist and is nothing like generalizing. It is absolutely normal for huge majority of immigrants to go through it. Why?

1. Because it is difficult to find work in Australia without local experience. At the beginning immigrants usually work for other immigrants, mostly small companies and are often paid well below national minimum and often cash to hand. Only some of them are lucky enough to get a good employer with good wage in the first go.

2. There is a lot of immigrant grey market in Australia and they only have casual or on call jobs. For some immigrants these are the only jobs they can get. For some other - extra few dollars. Grey market is mostly created by immigrants who have small businesses. If you go around Hurstville for example - you will notice plenty small Chinese restaurants, herbalists, remedial therapy places, massage shops, supermarkets etc. Would you believe that ALL of them pay no more than $10 per hour and only cash to hand? How do I know? Because my wife is Chinese and some time ago she went through all of them, trying to apply for work. However, I am pretty much convinced that all you see is generalizing and stereotyping that "Chinese pay cash to hand and no more than $10 per hour" and don't really see that there is bigger problem than a few immigrants hired as casuals being paid $18 per hour (for many of them this is actually a good salary).

3. Once you have a few casual jobs you begin to feel safe. Even you get sacked from one place, you still have 1 - 2 more left and you are not left without money. I personally had 4 at some stage and it did help me. It is not easy to believe that actually if you switch to just one job, you can feel safe. I remember, after getting permanent full time in April 2007, I kept one more casual work just in case for another 2 years - just to make sure that everything goes fine. Plenty of other acquaintances (also immigrants) did exactly the same until the point when they started feeling safe.

Indians, Pakistani, Asians (often mistakenly referred to as Chinese) are in particularly difficult position in Australia. There are more of them than other groups and there is larger grey market in their communities. Also, their English skills are usually lower than for example European immigrants (Asians) or their accents are so difficult to understand that locals actually think that they don't have proper English skills (Indians, Pakistani).

Maybe Railcorp is indeed taking advantage of that fact and having possibility of paying less to immigrants they do so. I am not denying that. They don't do that to the locals because they are aware of the fact that they would just quit. I am just stating that there are bigger frauds in job market than paying a casual $18 per hour.

As for salaries - I am not familiar with public sector as I work in privately owned mid size company in IT industry. Even in my team that reports to me, I have some people on $60k and some other on $45k and they all have the same position (their duties are slightly different). Salaries were offered based on their experience and they were offered these salaries before joining the company. It was up to them to accept it. I could hire a casual and pay them $20 per hour before tax and I have also seen no regulation that could stop me from doing this. I have not seen awards referring to telemarketers, data entry (I am not Award Finder now) or sales reps in IT industry. I will be grateful if you can show me award or regulation that proves I am not allowed to do this.


Last edited by Dexter; 06-03-2012 at 09:14 PM.

  #23 (permalink)  
Old 06-04-2012, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexter View Post
Daniel...

From your comments I am pretty sure that you don't really know how immigrant's life really looks. You are just focusing on the idea that everyone is just generalizing, stereotypes, racism etc. Both me and Boboa are immigrants and both of us (I am pretty sure Boboa did so too) went through that casual stage in their immigrant life. We both are writing about it because we know it does exist and is nothing like generalizing. It is absolutely normal for huge majority of immigrants to go through it. Why?

1. Because it is difficult to find work in Australia without local experience. At the beginning immigrants usually work for other immigrants, mostly small companies and are often paid well below national minimum and often cash to hand. Only some of them are lucky enough to get a good employer with good wage in the first go.

2. There is a lot of immigrant grey market in Australia and they only have casual or on call jobs. For some immigrants these are the only jobs they can get. For some other - extra few dollars. Grey market is mostly created by immigrants who have small businesses. If you go around Hurstville for example - you will notice plenty small Chinese restaurants, herbalists, remedial therapy places, massage shops, supermarkets etc. Would you believe that ALL of them pay no more than $10 per hour and only cash to hand? How do I know? Because my wife is Chinese and some time ago she went through all of them, trying to apply for work. However, I am pretty much convinced that all you see is generalizing and stereotyping that "Chinese pay cash to hand and no more than $10 per hour" and don't really see that there is bigger problem than a few immigrants hired as casuals being paid $18 per hour (for many of them this is actually a good salary).

3. Once you have a few casual jobs you begin to feel safe. Even you get sacked from one place, you still have 1 - 2 more left and you are not left without money. I personally had 4 at some stage and it did help me. It is not easy to believe that actually if you switch to just one job, you can feel safe. I remember, after getting permanent full time in April 2007, I kept one more casual work just in case for another 2 years - just to make sure that everything goes fine. Plenty of other acquaintances (also immigrants) did exactly the same until the point when they started feeling safe.

Indians, Pakistani, Asians (often mistakenly referred to as Chinese) are in particularly difficult position in Australia. There are more of them than other groups and there is larger grey market in their communities. Also, their English skills are usually lower than for example European immigrants (Asians) or their accents are so difficult to understand that locals actually think that they don't have proper English skills (Indians, Pakistani).

Maybe Railcorp is indeed taking advantage of that fact and having possibility of paying less to immigrants they do so. I am not denying that. They don't do that to the locals because they are aware of the fact that they would just quit. I am just stating that there are bigger frauds in job market than paying a casual $18 per hour.

As for salaries - I am not familiar with public sector as I work in privately owned mid size company in IT industry. Even in my team that reports to me, I have some people on $60k and some other on $45k and they all have the same position (their duties are slightly different). Salaries were offered based on their experience and they were offered these salaries before joining the company. It was up to them to accept it. I could hire a casual and pay them $20 per hour before tax and I have also seen no regulation that could stop me from doing this. I have not seen awards referring to telemarketers, data entry (I am not Award Finder now) or sales reps in IT industry. I will be grateful if you can show me award or regulation that proves I am not allowed to do this.
HI Dexter, I don't necessarily disagree with most of what you say, just perhaps the way you say it and the way you seem to put all the blame on the immigrants and little to none on the people doing the exploiting. When you do put blame on those exploiting, you tend to try to shift the blame to only immigrant employers.

20 dollars per hour before tax is probably a legal wage for the positions you describe. As a grade 2 dog handler I am getting 24 per hour including tax. But there's a big jump from 20 per hour post-tax to 14-18 pre-tax (minimum wage in SIA2010 Grade 1 Security officer being 16.40) + (25% casual loading) + (30% night shift loading) > 18.00 per hour.

I will look those awards up for you though. I'm guessing they will be around 16 per hour + casual loading of 20% being around 19.00 per hour.


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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 06-05-2012, 11:08 AM
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As a telemarketer 5 years ago I used to get about $17 per hour and it was casual.

Yes, I blame immigrant employees - or in particular immigrant owners of small businesses. Because it is them breaking law in so many matters that gives guys like Railcorp opportunity to offer $18 per hour to immigrant casuals whereas non-immigrants get a lot more. Simply, nobody would work for such low rate. Instead $18 per hour looks like blessing to many of those immigrants. Other one of their kind would never pay them even close to it. I understand it may be difficult to imagine when you are not an immigrant and never went through it.

Some examples of low rates offered to telemarketers can be even found on seek.com.au

SEEK - Customer Service Representatives - Casual Job in Sydney - $15 - $19.99 per hour

As for other call centre positions - I have seen rates starting from $19 per hour. Usually goes around $20 - $22 per hour.


  #25 (permalink)  
Old 06-15-2012, 10:50 AM
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I personally wouldn't go as far as to say that "immigrants aren't forced to come and stay here, so they can leave if they don't like it" - I don't believe the world is that simple. I think a lot of people become immigrants because their home countries are not safe, and I wouldn't necessarily tell them "put up with anything or go home". I know a family from Africa who moved to Australia decades ago so their children could be raised in a country without constant rape, pillaging and violence (which is what was going on in their homecountry at the time). I am lucky to be here for a partner but some of us come here for sadder reasons and to them, being taken advantage of isn't that bad if it keeps their kids safe.

That said, I would NEVER call Australia a racist country.

I actually have met a few Australians who have some issues with immigrants, bad luck on my end because they are RARE I know, and they said the funniest thing; "those Muslims don't respect our culture and want to replace it with their own, so I hate Muslims". It's fighting fire with fire. By letting a few extreme cases blind you, YOU become the racist yourself. Be very careful with that because it is a line *none* of us intend to cross but many still do because they believe they are being justified by one horrible incident or one small group.


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Old 06-15-2012, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelly87 View Post
I personally wouldn't go as far as to say that "immigrants aren't forced to come and stay here, so they can leave if they don't like it" - I don't believe the world is that simple. I think a lot of people become immigrants because their home countries are not safe, and I wouldn't necessarily tell them "put up with anything or go home". I know a family from Africa who moved to Australia decades ago so their children could be raised in a country without constant rape, pillaging and violence (which is what was going on in their homecountry at the time). I am lucky to be here for a partner but some of us come here for sadder reasons and to them, being taken advantage of isn't that bad if it keeps their kids safe.

That said, I would NEVER call Australia a racist country.

I actually have met a few Australians who have some issues with immigrants, bad luck on my end because they are RARE I know, and they said the funniest thing; "those Muslims don't respect our culture and want to replace it with their own, so I hate Muslims". It's fighting fire with fire. By letting a few extreme cases blind you, YOU become the racist yourself. Be very careful with that because it is a line *none* of us intend to cross but many still do because they believe they are being justified by one horrible incident or one small group.
Well said Nelly87 !


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Old 06-17-2012, 12:45 AM
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The great thing about Australia is that YOU can do something to improve your situation.

If you have a job you don't like or it is too hard - then change......
No one is keeping you at work.....
Go and get training for a better job at TAFE.....use online courses.

Go ahead - make things happen - don't just be a whinger and complain.

That is the real Australian - stand up for yourself and your mates - be smart and make change.

For the RailCorp OP.......take your own water to work, bring a folding seat, bring an umbrella. Make it as good as you can to work in those situations.....YOU can make changes!
Make sure you and the other workers are on the Award rates....not more or less.
If they don't let you make change - quit and get a better job.

Good luck.

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Old 07-21-2012, 05:48 AM
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For the RailCorp OP.......take your own water to work, bring a folding seat, bring an umbrella. Make it as good as you can to work in those situations.....YOU can make changes!
Make sure you and the other workers are on the Award rates....not more or less.
If they don't let you make change - quit and get a better job.

Good luck.
This sounds like good advice but its a little naive.

You could not realistically carry enough clean drinking water to work (can't take cars on site nor can you step outside the gate to get something from your car once on duty) to last a twelve hour shift in hot weather nor should you have to when the law states the employer MUST provide it.

Why take a folding seat when you are prohibited from sitting down anyway. If they saw a guard with a folding seat at work they would have him reported and it taken off site. If he was sitting on it he would be sacked.

Umbrellas are specifically prohibited for any guard to use as they can block the reflective vest, everyone else (Rail) uses them but a guard would be sacked as they are contractors.

And no you cannot make changes, I put my job on the line by trying to stand up for my and my fellow workers rights and I lost my job for it.


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Old 07-21-2012, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielrm
This sounds like good advice but its a little naive.

You could not realistically carry enough clean drinking water to work (can't take cars on site nor can you step outside the gate to get something from your car once on duty) to last a twelve hour shift in hot weather nor should you have to when the law states the employer MUST provide it.

Why take a folding seat when you are prohibited from sitting down anyway. If they saw a guard with a folding seat at work they would have him reported and it taken off site. If he was sitting on it he would be sacked.

Umbrellas are specifically prohibited for any guard to use as they can block the reflective vest, everyone else (Rail) uses them but a guard would be sacked as they are contractors.

And no you cannot make changes, I put my job on the line by trying to stand up for my and my fellow workers rights and I lost my job for it.
Pfft please, auditor general found that railcorp contractors are a corrupt waste of taxpayers money. I would shut down the whole shop and get the whole circus closed down. Chair? What chair? I don't have a chance to sit down at my job and I don't complain!

Not enough water? Get yourself a two litter bottle and stop complaining.

Maybe railcorp guys would like us to provide them with a taxpayer funded masseurs? How about a siesta time specifically for railcorp guards. So they can sit by the pool and sip a cocktail, rather than doing what they are supposed to do.

Please, the whole NSW is fed up with railcorp, it's slow ineffective and absolutely unproductive system. Employees of this organization be that permanent or contractors are lucky enough that they are paid by every NSW taxpayer and shouldn't have any right to complain. If that was a private organization half of them would have been gone in a tick of time.

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Last edited by Boboa; 07-22-2012 at 01:11 AM.

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Old 07-22-2012, 12:43 AM
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I put my job on the line by trying to stand up for my and my fellow workers rights and I lost my job for it.
From the first moment I read your story, I was pretty sure it would end like that. Not because of cruel employers but because nobody wants employees who cause trouble.

Not a while ago in my company a Muslim woman fell of stairs and allegedly decided to take the case with Workcover (I only know that from other's stories). From the first moment it was obvious she would lose (I am not even sure why she tried). First of all - company is not responsible for the fact that someone does not hold the railing and that someone wears high heel shoes to work when OH&S training sessions take place every 2 months and it is reminded quite often. She lost.

A few weeks after that employment reductions took place. Since her work performance wasn't very good, she got retrenched first... I can say that as a manager I would do the same - obviously making sure that everything is in accordance with Australian law and other regulations.

Before you decide to fight for something think of consequences and first of all if you are actually right.


Last edited by Dexter; 07-22-2012 at 01:09 AM.

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