[BrownWanderer]

Hey folks.

I am an American citizen and my partner is a dual citizen (US/Australia). We met in Melbourne and are getting married soon in New Zealand.

We are moving back to the US soon and while we have no desire to really settle down in Australia at the moment, it's always nice to have the option open.

Our kids will hopefully have both US and Australian passports.

So given that, is it possible for us me to apply for a PR (309/100) and hold on to it, even if I do not really plan on settling down here? Maybe even apply for citizenship at some stage (seeing as how Home Affairs website says time spent outside Australia as a permanent resident with your Australian citizen spouse may be treated as time spent in Australia)?

We will keep our bank accounts and maybe invest in a property or two over the years. And we will definitely visit since we have friends here.

Appreciate any thoughts/pointers from others who have gone through the process without any solid intention of migrating here permanently. Money is no object and we are perfectly happy settling down in the US so we aren't in any rush either. But just wondering about going through the process if it's ultimately futile.

Thank you.

 

[ZoeKaur]

I don't know specifically about 309 visas, and can't find information about this situation on the internet. At a glance, seems a bit strange to go through such a process 'just in case' you want to live here. The visa isn't really designed for that. Anyway, I think a migration agent should know better about this process, but tbh think about it. There are people on the list waiting years to get through the system, people for whom it is their only way to live happily together. Do you really want to add your application to the system?

I'm sure you will be able to get the appropriate visa entitled to you at the time you want to travel to Australia, but not sure if 309 is the right option for what you want.

 

[paulhand]

Also, I don't think you can get Australian citizenship while keeping your US citizenship because Australia doesn't allow dual citizenship .

Yes it does.

To the OP: there's little point in applying if you don't intend to use the visa. If you have a change of heart, apply for the partner visa when you are ready to move.

 

[Skybluebrewer]

Also, I don't think you can get Australian citizenship while keeping your US citizenship because Australia doesn't allow dual citizenship .

Both Australia and the U.S. allow multiple citizenships. I say "multiple" and not "dual" because the former is more accurate.

I have a child with three citizenships.

To the OP, the partner visa process is expensive. I personally wouldn't take the risk in applying with no intention to migrate as it doesn't seem to me that Australia like a to hand out PR to people who don't want to live here. Especially in the case of partner visas where they are intended to be used to live with your partner in Australia.

I agree with Paul. Best to wait until you decide if you want to live here before going for a partner visa.

 

[BrownWanderer]

Thank you all so much for your helpful feedback. Yes, the US does indeed allow dual citizenship because my partner has both Australian and American passports.

If we ever move to Australia to spend a few years here, I'd like to be able to not have to worry about going through the process at that time (having read the horror stories). Just wondering if there's an option to front load that.

The other reason I'm considering applying for it is also because I'd like to be able to invest in Australia (buy property, invest in the market, invest in startups etc). Plus it would give our kids the opportunity to have capital and a support system already in the country (homes, investment accounts etc).

I also recognize that others apply for very different reasons, and I'm extremely sympathetic to that. And in the grand scheme of things, the fees aren't particularly significant to me. Once again, fully recognize that's not the case for everyone.

I guess my question is more along the lines of whether it is technically possible to apply for a PR and get one if you're not actively living here. I'm not too concerned about proving ties to Australia -- happy to invest and buy property etc. Would they be willing to hand it to someone who's happy to invest in the country and keep ties?

Thank you again for all your insights.

 

[mrsmorrow28]

Im under the impression you should only be applying if you are genuine about making a life here and with what you have written above that doesn't really reflect the scenario or support your visa application. Surely the government would not look kindly on completing it 'just in case' and it also clogs the system and approvals process for those who are genuinely trying to be with their family and loved ones

 

[taco]

If we ever move to Australia to spend a few years here, I'd like to be able to not have to worry about going through the process at that time (having read the horror stories). Just wondering if there's an option to front load that.

The other reason I'm considering applying for it is also because I'd like to be able to invest in Australia (buy property, invest in the market, invest in startups etc).

[...]

I guess my question is more along the lines of whether it is technically possible to apply for a PR and get one if you're not actively living here. I'm not too concerned about proving ties to Australia -- happy to invest and buy property etc. Would they be willing to hand it to someone who's happy to invest in the country and keep ties?

I am probably in a not too disimilar situation, except that I have been considering this exact same question for about 10 years now. During that time the cost of the visa and duration to get it has increased significantly, which has been the downside of not applying earlier. A few thoughts to consider given your questions:

1) The main reason not to apply that I am aware of is that though your PR does not expire, the ability to travel to Australia is only valid 5 years. After that you need an RRV to travel to Australia which will need to demonstrate ties. If you have never made any effort to actually move it may be hard to prove that. This is the only reason I have not applied yet.
2) Another complication is that the process does require you to answer questions on your intent to move to and settle in Australia, which would be hard to do.
3) You don't need PR to invest in Australia (eg in property), especially if you have an Australian spouse. You need certain waivers to buy property, but my understanding is that that's not too hard to get. Similarly, you can invest in stocks through most brokers without a certain residency status. Not sure about start-ups.
4) Finally, a big one is that doing the application is quite a lot of effort, gathering all the necessary information and proof. So money might not be an blocker but maybe time is?

Having said all that, if you are willing to spend the money and time, and take the risk on the 5 year validity of the travel facility I don't see a lot of downside.

A consult with an RMA would probably be valuable to really understand the downsides & risks.

 

[Ozbound3]

There are people on the list waiting years to get through the system, people for whom it is their only way to live happily together. Do you really want to add your application to the system?

I have to second this, considering that I'm waiting in America for my visa to be granted and have been separated from my husband for a year and a half now due to the clogged up immigration system. I can't imagine that people who really don't need this visa would contribute to creating even more of a delay for people who do....

 

[wrussell]

Yes it does..

The Murdoch amendments.

 

[BrownWanderer]

Im under the impression you should only be applying if you are genuine about making a life here and with what you have written above that doesn't really reflect the scenario or support your visa application. Surely the government would not look kindly on completing it 'just in case' and it also clogs the system and approvals process for those who are genuinely trying to be with their family and loved ones

There are people on the list waiting years to get through the system, people for whom it is their only way to live happily together. Do you really want to add your application to the system?

I have to second this, considering that I'm waiting in America for my visa to be granted and have been separated from my husband for a year and a half now due to the clogged up immigration system. I can't imagine that people who really don't need this visa would contribute to creating even more of a delay for people who do....

I understand the difficulties. Trust me, I do. My partner and I have spent the past year between her in Australia and me in South Africa and it's been really quite painful. Long distance isn't easy at all.

However, there is no quota of these visas. Which means I'm not taking it away from someone. At worst, I'm just one more application, of the hundreds of thousands.

I wouldn't tell them that it's just in case, of course.

 

[Maggie-May24]

Yes, you can apply. However it will come with 5 years of entry rights and if you don't move over in that time you'd need to apply for a Resident Return Visa to gain additional entry rights. Depending on whether your relationship is at least 3 years on, you may go right to the 100 visa, otherwise you are assessed 2 years after your application for the permanent stage and you'd need to address the "intent to live in Australia" criteria.

 

[chrislane99]

Wow Brown-Wonderer

No quota? Wrong I think. There are annual limits but most importantly as previously stated,
the DHA or IMMI dept. has finite resources and every application is another car on the freeway.

Look what happens to most USA motorways when everyone is travelling in the summer driving season!!
If you don't need the visa don't block another's journey thank you!

 

[Mania]

I would apply, get it out of the way with, if you dont use it then so be it.

As per the previous posts there are pitfalls to overcome, if the financial side is of little consequence id get an RMA to advise and then prepare the case based on what suited me and their advice as to how and when.

I would also be waiting until i fulfilled the criteria for a direct PR grant before applying (if i didnt already) especially as delaying to get it wont have an effect on lifestyle.

 

[Mania]

Wow Brown-Wonderer

No quota? Wrong I think. There are annual limits but most importantly as previously stated,
the DHA or IMMI dept. has finite resources and every application is another car on the freeway.

Look what happens to most USA motorways when everyone is travelling in the summer driving season!!
If you don't need the visa don't block another's journey thank you!

309 / 820 visas and the PR counterparts arent subject to capping.

https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/trav/brin/fami/capping-and-queuing

 

[Aussie83]

Wow Brown-Wonderer

No quota? Wrong I think. There are annual limits but most importantly as previously stated,
the DHA or IMMI dept. has finite resources and every application is another car on the freeway.

Look what happens to most USA motorways when everyone is travelling in the summer driving season!!
If you don't need the visa don't block another's journey thank you!

309 / 820 visas and the PR counterparts arent subject to capping.

https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/trav/brin/fami/capping-and-queuing

That's where the age old debat comes in. There is no cap but there are planning levels and the grants each year are magically close to that number

 

[Eh?]

I think the pitchforks need to be put away. What the OP decides is his/her business. Do you have to like it? No, but it's their life, money and time.

I understand why others might be frustrated or irritated, but let it go. Applying for a "just in case" type scenario won't bump you from the queue.

 

[LadyRogueRayne]

Also, to add in about gaining citizenship in Australia...

You have to live here for a period of 4 years (cannot apply until you've had PR for at least 1 year) in order to gain citizenship. You can leave and come back, but there is a limit to how much time you can spend outside of Australia if you want to apply for citizenship. And as others have mentioned, you will be asked about your living arrangements or plans for when you move to Australia. I fully understand where you are coming from, as I'm an American married to an Aussie living in Australia. My husband and I have discussed the opposite: him getting a green card for the US "just in case." However, we know that we don't have any plans of moving to the US and felt that IF that were to happen, we'll apply when needed.

Your biggest problem is that the partner visa only grants 5 years of travel rights, then you have to apply for a RRV, in which you have to show significant ties to Australia. You won't be a true resident, so to me it seems like you'd be setting yourself up for a lot of problems down the road should you decide to move to Australia.

Just some food for thought. I'd suggest a 189 skilled visa, but you'd run into the same hurdles as the partner visa.

 

[abby603]

I think the pitchforks need to be put away. What the OP decides is his/her business. Do you have to like it? No, but it's their life, money and time.

I understand why others might be frustrated or irritated, but let it go. Applying for a "just in case" type scenario won't bump you from the queue.

I agree with this, as difficult as the process is for everyone waiting (I know, I've been there), OP has as many rights as everyone else to apply for the visa if they wish to do so.

That being said, OP, if I was in your situation I don't think I'd apply for the reason mentioned by others before me: the traveling rights on the PR visa expiring in 5 years (out of which, you need to have lived in Australia for 2 years to be able to renew them for another 5 years, rinse and repeat).

If you really have no plan to establish yourself in Australia right now, I'd wait... Going through the entire process (with the potential complications of not having the intention of settling here) to then likely losing your travelling rights and having to go through the uncertain process of proving "substantial" ties to Australia to regain them, feels quite stressful to me.

From the IMMI website (when applying for the resident return visa, which is the travelling rights):

If you do not meet the residence requirement, you must provide documents that show evidence of your substantial ties to Australia:

documents to show business ties
documents to show cultural ties
documents to show employment ties
documents to show personal ties
You must tell us, in a statement, how the substantial ties are of benefit to Australia.

In your case I'd wait until there's at least a plan in the horizon to move to Australia within the next few years before applying. Partner visa processing times are slow, and the process is a pain, which is why I wouldn't risk losing my ability to live here by applying prematurely.

Edit: Oh and a quick thing, I really doubt you'd be able to gain citizenship without meeting the residence requirement

You must meet all of the following:

have lived in Australia on a valid Australian visa for four years immediately before applying
must have been a permanent resident for the 12 months immediately before making an application and not have been absent from Australia for more than one year in total, during the four year period, including no more than 90 days in the 12 months before applying.

There are a few exceptions to allow for variations to the residence requirement, but I doubt you'd be eligible for any of them:

https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/trav...u-need/variation-to-the-residence-requirement

 

[BrownWanderer]

Yes, you can apply. However it will come with 5 years of entry rights and if you don't move over in that time you'd need to apply for a Resident Return Visa to gain additional entry rights. Depending on whether your relationship is at least 3 years on, you may go right to the 100 visa, otherwise you are assessed 2 years after your application for the permanent stage and you'd need to address the "intent to live in Australia" criteria.

Thank you. That is my understanding as well. I am hoping having property in Australia and a bank account with sufficient balance is sufficient evidence for showing intent to live.

I guess the question is whether I wait to satisfy the criteria to go straight to the 100 visa or if I file for 309 and go through the whole process.

 

[Skybluebrewer]

Thank you. That is my understanding as well. I am hoping having property in Australia and a bank account with sufficient balance is sufficient evidence for showing intent to live.

I guess the question is whether I wait to satisfy the criteria to go straight to the 100 visa or if I file for 309 and go through the whole process.

The 309/100 is one application. If you have sufficient evidence of a long term relationship (See website for requirements) and a CO decided, the two year waiting period between application and PR eligibility is waived so the 309 gets granted with the 100 simultaneously.

There are other options as well when you're ready to move. For example, you can get an ETA, come to Oz, then apply onshore for the 820/801. You'll be given a bridging visa A with full work rights (once the 3 month stay on the ETA ends, the BVA goes into effect) and eligible for Medicare. You can stay in Oz until a decision is made. Again, same as above... the 820 and 801 can be granted simultaneously.