Citizenship changes - Page 49

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Citizenship changes - Page 49


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  #481 (permalink)  
Old 06-25-2017, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by FutureCitizen View Post
I have done the IELTS in 2015 and I scored 5.5 ( don't care if you are going to judge me or not) as I did speak fluent English at the time however my spelling skills needed some improvement and I had no idea on how to structure an essay or a long answer response.
If you did the test now you would get atleast 6 so that shows in 2 years you can improve.

There are alot of countries out there where any would be citizen needs to be able to speak the llanguage of the country - Germany for example.


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  #482 (permalink)  
Old 06-25-2017, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by FutureCitizen View Post
How is someone supposed to improve aka study full time when he or she has a full-time job?
I remember when I did my English course at TAFE, around %20 of the newcomers that the Centrelink was forcing them to do courses never finished the Course but instead got full-time jobs at the target, burger king and others as waitresses and chefs at the local restaurants.

Do you think that blue collar 7th generation Australians who literally only have about 100 English words in their vocabulary ever be able to score 6 in the IELTS test or Senator Hanson who dropped out of school at the age of 15 and married a Polish immigrant at the age of 16 is
able to score 6 at the IELTS?

Many people would rather make money than study!
Sounding a little judgy of blue collar 7th generation Australians there, mate. How dare you suggest that because someone votes a certain way and does a certain job that they would be incapable of passing an exam. Who do you think you are, seriously?

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  #483 (permalink)  
Old 06-25-2017, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by al_ghazal View Post
I have an issue with the English language requirement. And it's nothing personal for me my husband will pass the test if he needs too.

For a start ones contribution to Australia shouldn't be measured on their language ability.

Second this sort of requirement mostly penalises women who due to working in the home have less opportunity to master English.

Third it also penalises refugees and especially female refugees who may not even be literate in their first language.

Fourth the IELTS is less about testing English capabilities and more about ones ability to master the art of the exam. People with limited or no formal education really struggle with IELTS this is well documented.

Finally many people that come to Australia are actually multilingual. English is not just the second but third or fourth language.

Australia has become a rich a prosperous nation due to its ability to embrace multiculturalism and celebrate the diversity of culture, language, religion and thought that brings. The current rejection of multiculturalism is simply a political stunt intended to polarise the community and pander to popularist opinion while deflecting from the real issues that the government does not what to address like education, health, housing, equality and the environment.
There are loads of thinkers across the world who question the sort of non-interventionist multiculturalism in which a migrant isn't at all expected to assimilate, or at the very least accept some common societal norms. To suggest that current talk is just a political stunt is to ignore over 30 years of Western naval-gazing on this issue.

Why anyone would want to become a citizen of a country who's culture doesn't interest them enough for them to even attempt to learn the official (or majority) language begs the question why they even came. If you're not a refugee, but you here of your own free will (and paid the heavy fees for the privilege) then I can't fathom why you wouldn't want to learn the language.

It's not like it's an obscure language, after all. It's the most studied second language on the planet, hands down. And it also happens to be the first language of over half a billion people.

Learning to speak a good level English just makes sense, and especially if some day you choose to leave Australia. Chances are the next place you land the English language might come in handy.

If you don't want to just be seen as a cynical economic migrant, then learn the freaking language.

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  #484 (permalink)  
Old 06-26-2017, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by MarcellusF View Post
Sounding a little judgy of blue collar 7th generation Australians there, mate. How dare you suggest that because someone votes a certain way and does a certain job that they would be incapable of passing an exam. Who do you think you are, seriously?
Sorry if I offended you but my opinion is purely based on my experience with Australian blue collar workers, all I can say is that judging them by the way they speak and their grammar, they would not be able to score 6 at the IELTS.

-My opinion

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  #485 (permalink)  
Old 06-26-2017, 03:47 AM
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According to DIAC's report, they issued 189,770 pr in 2015-2016 year. 128,550 places were delivered in the Skill stream; 57,400 places were delivered in the Family stream; and 308 places were delivered in the Special Eligibility stream.
Around 70% were delivered in the skill stream, most of people get their pr through skill stream have to have a IELTS score at 5.5 at least to apply their visa. For the young Uni graduates, they need to get 7 to apply. The english requirement change will not really effect on these people. It will only effect on these 30% of people who get their pr through family stream. In these 30% of people, I believe there are many uni graduates who did IELTS test before. Normally for a bachelor degree, the entry requirement for IELTS is 6. For a master degree, the requirement for IELTS is 6.5 or 7. Excluding the people from english speaking countries. I guess, the impact of english requirement is around 20% of the annual immigrants. That's around 40,000 people each year.

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  #486 (permalink)  
Old 06-26-2017, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Mish View Post
Well, her husband should be learning English too. She can go out in the community and practice. You have to speak English when going and ordering things from restaurants for examples. She can volunteer at places to practice her English.

She needs to practice to in order to improve and the responsibility of it should not be put on to the teachers at the AMEP places as they cannot force them to speak English, they can only do the best with what they have. The question for your Aunt is why her son doesn't help when he is around and you can speak English so you can help her too.

I know of someone who came to Australia only being able to speak English to people through google translator. This person attended the AMEP and they can now speak really good English.
That's the reality. Some people have lived in Australia a long time, they are still not be able to speak or write english. It's kind of pathetic, but that's their own choice. As a chinese speaker, if you stay in a "chinese suburbs" you don't need to speak a single english word to live.

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  #487 (permalink)  
Old 06-26-2017, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by solskjaer View Post
That's the reality. Some people have lived in Australia a long time, they are still not be able to speak or write english. It's kind of pathetic, but that's their own choice. As a chinese speaker, if you stay in a "chinese suburbs" you don't need to speak a single english word to live.
I wonder what they do in an emergency situation when they can't communicate with the 000 operator or the doctor in the emergency department?


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  #488 (permalink)  
Old 06-26-2017, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by solskjaer View Post
That's the reality. Some people have lived in Australia a long time, they are still not be able to speak or write english. It's kind of pathetic, but that's their own choice. As a chinese speaker, if you stay in a "chinese suburbs" you don't need to speak a single english word to live.
I know some Italians who came out in the post war period who also never picked up the language. They could go grocery shopping and knew the names for products they needed, but could never hold an abstract conversation.

In their defence I'd suggest Australia was a far less welcoming place back when they originally immigrated. Australians weren't as inclusive back in the 50s (let's face it) as they are today, so immigrants would automatically group together and form Little Italys or the like. There were also very few resources for immigrants to learn English back then, and the government figured work would just sort it out. Thankfully for most postwar Italians and their children, work was enough. But many women who stayed home as a matter of course back in the day, suffered the added handicap of very little exposure to English on a daily basis.

In this day and age, and with the internet and all the government programs in place, there is absolutely no excuse to not acquire a high standard of spoken English. We can quibble on whether that should be IELTS 5 or 6, but at the end of the day, I think it's doable.

My Italian wife can't wait to improve her language proficiency. There's nothing worse than not being able articulate your every thought as precisely as possible. Trust me, my Italian is good but it nots perfect, and it kills me too when I struggle to express a finer point or tell a gripping story. Obviously I want that to improve, just as much as my wife wants her English to get better. She's actively making sure that happens. So I don't understand and will probably never appreciate the logic of not wanting to work at speaking the language of the country I've chosen to call my home.

It's ignorant, really, and perpetuates segregation.

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Last edited by MarcellusF; 06-26-2017 at 05:39 AM. Reason: Spelling

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  #489 (permalink)  
Old 06-26-2017, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by MarcellusF View Post
I know some Italians who came out in the post war period who also never picked up the language. They could go grocery shopping and knew the names for products they needed, but could never hold an abstract conversation.

In their defence I'd suggest Australia was a far less welcoming place back when they originally immigrated. Australians weren't as inclusive back in the 50s (let's face it) as they are today, so immigrants would automatically group together and form Little Italys or the like. There were also very few resources for immigrants to learn English back then, and the government figured work would just sort it out. Thankfully for most postwar Italians and their children, work was enough. But many women who stayed home as a matter of course back in the day, suffered the added handicap of very little exposure to English on a daily basis.

In this day and age, and with the internet and all the government programs in place, there is absolutely no excuse to not acquire a high standard of spoken English. We can quibble on whether that should be IELTS 5 or 6, but at the end of the day, I think it's doable.

My Italian wife can't wait to improve her language proficiency. There's nothing worse than not being able articulate your every thought as precisely as possible. Trust me, my Italian is good but it nots perfect, and it kills me too when I struggle to express a finer point or tell a gripping story. Obviously I want that to improve, just as much as my wife wants her English to get better. She's actively making sure that happens. So I don't understand and will probably never appreciate the logic of not wanting to work at speaking the language of the country I've chosen to call my home.

It's ignorant, really, and perpetuates segregation.

In order to apply for citizenship, you must hold a PR visa.
I'm going to simplify a little the pathways to PR just to make my point clearer:
there are mainly 3 streams:
1- skilled migrants
2- partners
3- humanitarian

1- we can say safely assume that these people would score a 6 since they had to do so to get the PR status so test doesn't impact them
2- These ppl could get impacted
3- These ppl are likely to come from places with limited access to basic education and have been through scenarios that I probably am not able to imagine. Think just the journey to get to Australia.

People falling under category 3 are the most likely to have troubles achieving the required level and they are probably who need a sense of security and a passport the most.

If we agree that ppl under stream 3 deserve an exemption, only ppl in stream 2 could get to apply for citizenship without a proper level of English. Should this be the problem, wouldn't it be more fair to ask them to prove their English before getting a PR status instead of preventing the entire category no3 to gain citizenship?

I don't see the point of an English test to gain citizenship. Vetting should happen before people are granted the right to live permanently.

Maybe I'm getting this wrong, but from what you are saying I could derive that is ok to live permanently without proper knowledge of the language in Australia, but these people shouldn't call themselves Australian.

What is the advantage of having a group of people who permanently reside but cannot express their opinions by choosing their MP for example?

I think the focus should be on what is required to gain PR status, once people get to that point, I'd personally want them to formally commit to their new home.

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  #490 (permalink)  
Old 06-26-2017, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by popolo View Post
What is the advantage of having a group of people who permanently reside but cannot express their opinions by choosing their MP for example?
I feel that those who vote, and contribute to making changes for all Australians, should have the English ability to know exactly what they are voting for.

I am already having to tell some people who to vote for, as they don't understand it. I am not sure it should be right to have to do that.

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