Certifiying Reference Letter Copies

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Certifiying Reference Letter Copies


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Old 09-25-2009, 08:46 AM
MSD MSD is offline
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Certifiying Reference Letter Copies

Hello. I have read on ACS:
Quote:
Certified Documents

Please do not send originals, as liability cannot be accepted for original documents.

All original documents (and the translation into English where required) are to be photocopied and certified by an official of the appropriate immigration office, a Justice of the Peace or a notary public official. Photocopies or faxed copies of certified documents are not acceptable.

Documents (original and/or certified copies) submitted for assessment will not be returned nor will copies be given to the applicant. Therefore it is in the applicant's own interest to have multiple copies certified.
Link: ACS (Australian Computer Society) - Membership, Professionalism and Leadership for ICT Professionals and the ICT Community

Also in the FAQ:
Quote:
40. Who can certify documents?

A Justice of the Peace; or

A Commissioner for Declarations; or

A person before whom a statutory declaration may be made under the Statutory Declarations Act 1959; or

If the copy is to be certified in a place outside Australia - a person who is the equivalent of a Justice of the Peace or Commissioner for Declarations in that place.

Please ask your local courts or Embassy for who is eligible from overseas. We do not have any lists with us.
Link: ACS (Australian Computer Society) - Membership, Professionalism and Leadership for ICT Professionals and the ICT Community

So since I am advised not to send originals, I guess this applies to my reference letters because they are not easy to request. But I went to an official licensed by my government (Lebanon) (he also is officially entitled to certify other kinds of docs like translation of birth certificate) but he said that it is not possible to certify a copy of such a document because it does not come from an official party and advised me to get more originals. Now I went ahead and asked a lawyer to confirm, and they told me that such a copy cannot be considered a legal document, so I have to stick with sending originals. I am baffled. I really think there should be a more practical solution.

also:
Quote:
Please ask your local courts or Embassy for who is eligible from overseas. We do not have any lists with us.
I already checked before with the Australian Embassy in Lebanon regarding other questions but all I got was something like: "We cannot help you, you have to ask ACS". I am guessing since this is not only about ACS (since they will ask me eventually to provide evidence of my work experience after I am done with ACS) they might help this time with a real answer. Or I might try and ask ACS, but I am not sure they would know how to guide me with the specifics of my country.

Any ideas?


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Old 09-25-2009, 01:28 PM
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You need to look at the documents business with a bit of logic, ie.

1. Immigration are of course not going to get involved with a qualification assessment issue for ACS are the responsible authority for that in your case.

2. The ACS position on documents copies and certification is in any case more or less identical to that of Immigration, ie. do not send originals for you'll not get them back.

3. The Lebanese officials you have approached have a bit of a weird view for it does not matter what you take a copy of for it is as simple as putting down on a table
a. The document you have copied.
b. The copies of the document you have copied.

[ Same deal if you have copied your birth certificate]

Their role is solely to look at what you have copied and then see that the copies are copies of that and put a stamp and signature on to say the copy is a copy.

If they cannot think that clearly they need to be in a different line of work and all you can do is hope to find someone in authority there who can advise you properly.





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Old 09-25-2009, 02:43 PM
MSD MSD is offline
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Hi. The thing that I still cannot figure is if the people that are going to process my application at ACS will decide if a certain copy is certified or not, then they must have certain standards that define a document as either certified or not. So where are those standards. Anyways, i am going to try and ask someone else for a certification maybe it would work.


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Old 09-26-2009, 12:36 AM
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The ACS and Immigration standards for certification is they merely rely on the authorities or authorised notariats in a country where an applicant lives [ as per 40. Who can certify documents? ]
or in Australia there is a much wider choice of people.

What ACS and immigration are more interested in then are what information is it that documents contain.

I had done a little Lebanon google and a few places that turned up that had reference to certification were:
1. General Security [more re people in Lebanon]
2. University of Lebanon
3. US embassy offers a service for certifying copies of documents that are to be used in reference to the US [not much help, though I thought how would they know where you are planning on going, but then they are not really authorised by the Lebanese government.

I appreciate there has been more turmoil in Lebanon than some countries but is there not like a Justice department you can ring and get a list of people who are authorised for certifying documents and copies thereof.





Last edited by Wanderer; 09-26-2009 at 08:41 AM.

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Old 09-26-2009, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
The ACS and Immigration standards for certification is that merely rely on the authorities or authorised notariats in a country where an applicant lives [ as per 40. Who can certify documents? ]
or in Australia there is a much wider choice of people.

What ACS and immigration are more interested in then are what information is it that documents contain.

I had done a little Lebanon google and a few places that turned up that had reference to certification were:
1. General Security [more re people in Lebanon]
2. University of Lebanon
3. US embassy offers a service for certifying copies of documents that are to be used in reference to the US [not much help, though I thought how would they know where you are planning on going, but then they are not really authorised by the Lebanese government.

I appreciate there has been more turmoil in Lebanon than some countries but is there not like a Justice department you can ring and get a list of people who are authorised for certifying documents and copies thereof.

Well in Lebanon there is a title "Just Writer" (literal translation) pronounced in Arabic (Al-Katib Al 'Adl). This person can certify English translation for documents like the Certificate Equivalence. But apparently, as the last one told me, they would not certify documents that are originally in English, or at least that is the excuse. I guess I have no other choice than try and get more originals. Concerning General Security I think they are only concerned with documents like passports, thus they would certify a copy of the passport. I truly think that the Australian authorities in Lebanon should make it possible to apply the recommendations which they themselves give on sites like the immigration or ACS sites, but then again that is my opinion.

Edit: the title translates (through google translate) to "Notary Public". Now that sounds more correct


Last edited by MSD; 09-26-2009 at 07:50 AM.

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Old 09-26-2009, 08:53 AM
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Re:
Quote:
Well in Lebanon there is a title "Just Writer" (literal translation) pronounced in Arabic (Al-Katib Al 'Adl). This person can certify English translation for documents like the Certificate Equivalence. But apparently, as the last one told me, they would not certify documents that are originally in English, or at least that is the excuse. I guess I have no other choice than try and get more originals. Concerning General Security I think they are only concerned with documents like passports, thus they would certify a copy of the passport. I truly think that the Australian authorities in Lebanon should make it possible to apply the recommendations which they themselves give on sites like the immigration or ACS sites, but then again that is my opinion.
The "just writer" or whatever it may be called sounds like the transalators that people here in Australia can access but getting translations done is something entirely different to the mere accreditation of copies and perhaps you have been seeing the wrong people and should find out from the government if there are people with government accreditation for merely certifying copies.

The General Security may be involved with more the passports situation but I saw on their site that because of the mix of peoples there, other documents can be involved and would it do any harm to contact someone there if you are otherwise struggling with the issue.

And re
" I truly think that the Australian authorities in Lebanon should make it possible to apply the recommendations which they themselves give on sites like the immigration or ACS sites, but then again that is my opinion. "

You are entitled to your opinion but what Australia and other true democracies do is have systems in place for sound governance of their countries and to think that we should meddle in another coutries form of government processes or supplement them is a bit far fetched.

The fact that there is some doubt over there being a simple accreditation authority is possibly part of the reason there are high risk and low risk countries.





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Old 09-26-2009, 05:36 PM
MSD MSD is offline
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Quote:
The "just writer" or whatever it may be called sounds like the transalators that people here in Australia can access
I corrected the term, the correct translation is "Notary Public" and they do not translate, they confirm translations as well as different sorts of documents. I already translated some documents and after that went to the Notary Public to stamp and sign them. After that I went to the Department of Justice to sign and stamp them, then finally I will go to the Ministry of Foreign affairs to sign and stamp them. But as for the reference letters they appear to refuse to get involved although as you stated before it seems pretty simple to confirm a copy of something if you have the originals.
Anyways, concerning what I said about the Australian authorities, all I meant was that it is not hard for them to make it easier for people like me by giving more information or alternatives or at least a way out. I am not blaming them

In anyway, I would like again to thank you for bearing with me, I really appreciate the time.


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Old 09-27-2009, 02:09 AM
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I was a little harsh with part of my response MSD and the purpose of the forum is to try and help, so bearing with you your difficulty is not a problem.

Another thought I had is that you will be far from the first person to have immigrated to Australia from Lebanon and whilst in practical terms it is difficult for Australian immigration to tailor general immigration regulations to various country situations, for it then becomes what do you do where and when whereas there needs to be a consistency of approach.

Anyway, on " you will be far from the first person to have immigrated to Australia from Lebanon " , there is a reasonable size Lebanese community in Sydney and an Australian Lebanese Association - Australian Lebanese Association Of NSW

How about you shoot them an email and see if you can get some advice from people who have been through the process and who they may have used for certifying copies.





Last edited by Wanderer; 09-27-2009 at 02:11 AM.

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Old 09-27-2009, 05:21 PM
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Great suggestion, I will give it a try, thanks. Will keep you updated.


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