Nominated occupation to be "closely related" (?) to Australian studies

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Nominated occupation to be "closely related" (?) to Australian studies


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Old 04-22-2010, 09:50 AM
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Question Nominated occupation to be "closely related" (?) to Australian studies

Hi all,

First let me say that I have just discovered this forum, I've read a few threads and I have to say it's pretty awesome!

Ok so here's my situation:
I'm a french student currently studying a Master of Commerce in Sydney and approaching the end of my 2 years. I'm looking at applying for permanent residency under the general skilled migration scheme.
I've got a Master of Engineering from my previous studies in France.
I understand the rules of skilled migration pretty well, but one point is still not clear.
It concerns the "closely related" condition saying that the nominated occupation and the subject of Australian studies have to be "closely related" in order to apply for PR.

My goal is to work as a Sales Engineer - an occupation that uses both engineering and business skills - but that very particular occupation is not listed as such in the Skilled Occupation List. After calling DIAC I was told to choose the most appropriate in the list. It would have to be mechanical engineer I guess.

Now, my question is: if i choose mechanical engineer and positively get my skills assessed as such, will DIAC consider my business studies in Australia "closely related" to that occupation?

I called DIAC this morning regarding that matter, and they were not able to provide any answer else than the usual "you have to decide what you think is the most relevant".

What can I do ?

I would greatly, greatly appreciate any help on this matter! It's driving me crazy!

Cheers,
Sylvain


  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-2010, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phiber View Post
Hi all,

First let me say that I have just discovered this forum, I've read a few threads and I have to say it's pretty awesome!

Ok so here's my situation:
I'm a french student currently studying a Master of Commerce in Sydney and approaching the end of my 2 years. I'm looking at applying for permanent residency under the general skilled migration scheme.
I've got a Master of Engineering from my previous studies in France.
I understand the rules of skilled migration pretty well, but one point is still not clear.
It concerns the "closely related" condition saying that the nominated occupation and the subject of Australian studies have to be "closely related" in order to apply for PR.

My goal is to work as a Sales Engineer - an occupation that uses both engineering and business skills - but that very particular occupation is not listed as such in the Skilled Occupation List. After calling DIAC I was told to choose the most appropriate in the list. It would have to be mechanical engineer I guess.

Now, my question is: if i choose mechanical engineer and positively get my skills assessed as such, will DIAC consider my business studies in Australia "closely related" to that occupation?

I called DIAC this morning regarding that matter, and they were not able to provide any answer else than the usual "you have to decide what you think is the most relevant".

What can I do ?

I would greatly, greatly appreciate any help on this matter! It's driving me crazy!

Cheers,
Sylvain
Hi Sylvain and it would seem that Immi have told you much as it is and that you do not have a lot of choice unless your Masters of Commerce would alone be qualification accepted for another SOL/preferably CSL occupation.

I think we can drop the Sales Engineer facade here for you do not need to attempt convincing me in particular with an engineering background and I do not think I would ever come across a Sales Engineer with a double masters.
I have however known of engineers doing Masters courses, usually an MBA unless they were thinking of a greater switch of a career into business circles other than just boosting their management credentials.

If engineering is your base qualification prior to doing the first masters, that is probably what you're best using to seek qualification assessment and you need to do that with the IEA first up as a precedent to an immigration application.
Then it is going to be a case of either:
. seeking your onshore independent skilled visa approval based on having studied the two years masters of commerce and from the examples the immi site gives, one could read that there may be some risk:
Quote:
Other examples of acceptable combinations of closely related to your nominated skilled occupation an applicant who nominates:

•Pharmacist as their skilled occupation and completes a Bachelor of Pharmacy in Australia
•Electrical Engineer as their skilled occupation and has completed a Bachelor and Masters of Engineering in Australia
•Pastry Cook as their skilled occupation and has completed a Certificate III in Patisserie and Certificate IV in Commercial Cookery in Australia
•Archivist as their skilled occupation who has completed a Graduate Diploma in Information Management and an Associate Diploma in Computer Science in Australia
•Graphic Designer as their skilled occupation and has completed an Advanced Diploma of Arts in Graphic Design and a Diploma of Business.
Though commerce ability can supplement engineering work as there are often more commercial aspects associated with project/product developments/management and associated consulting/contracting issues and indeed with the major multi billion resource projects regularly projected, they would not get off the ground without commercial assessments of future markets to seek international financial backing and/or joint ventures.

So I would think there is a case that can be argued against a visa application rejection on the engineering/commerce grounds if it was to occur and it could be that as engineers are often in high demand, there'd be no rejection.

The other aspect you may want to consider is a totally different path for the general skilled migration process is currently in the midst of new regulations implementation and by the time you get IEA accreditation, the scene for points assessment could be changed a bit - have a read of changes announced 8Feb. - What's New? Recent Changes in General Skilled Migration , there being a sticky thread on them.

One thing that has come from reviews preceding the changes that also give re-inforcement is that the governments immigration policy firmly identifies job identification immigration as top priority and hence the Employer Sponsorship route is top priority and will be followed by the new State Migration Plans where States will have been involved in identifying what occupations are high on their demand lists [ likely to be many from the former CSL I suspect ].

So perhaps in parallel with getting your engineering qualifications assessed and completing your masters, you may want to be sussing out appropriate employment with a view to having employer sponsorship as a back-up if not your primary visa route.





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Old 04-23-2010, 10:16 AM
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Hi Wanderer,

Thank you so much for your quick reply! I really appreciate it!
It's a pretty good summary of my options you've done here, and I am in fact also looking for employment in parallel to trying to get a visa.

However one point has attracted my attention:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I think we can drop the Sales Engineer facade here for you do not need to attempt convincing me in particular with an engineering background and I do not think I would ever come across a Sales Engineer with a double masters.
I have however known of engineers doing Masters courses, usually an MBA unless they were thinking of a greater switch of a career into business circles other than just boosting their management credentials.
It seems that you question how genuine are my intentions to become a Sales Engineer, which I can understand given the differences in education structures between countries. Maybe Sale Engineer is not the right term to describe my intentions, and it would be an invaluable help if you could maybe suggest a better description or job title for what I do.

As opposed to Australia, and I guess other countries, in France all engineers have a Master level. Engineering studies are 5 years long (after high school) and there is no intermediate qualification between the time you join your first year after high school and the time you graduate after 5 years. So in France, in engineering, undergrad simply does not exist. It is becoming increasingly common for engineering graduates to pursue further studies (about 20% of my class did it). It usually takes the form of a 1 year course either in a specific engineering field or in management/business related formations.
It's pretty much what i did except that instead of a year, it was 1.5 years in Australia, that i decided to extend for a semester.
The reason why students tend to increasingly do that is because it's becoming more and more difficult to get a job as "simply" an engineer in France and because what we call "technico-commercial" engineers are massively looked for.
"Technico-commercial" engineers are people that combine advanced technical skills with business related skills. They are typically in contact with customers, proposing products, establishing quotes, proposing tailored technical solutions and negotiating commercial contracts. Those people need to have advanced technical skills and must have an in depth knowledge of the company's products . This is because they have to be able to discuss technical details with customers (which purely business people cannot do) and to propose feasible technical solutions together with costs. As you accurately underlined, engineers often undergo business related tasks whether it's negotiations, managerial based tasks or deal with economy related issues.

From my research, I have come to the conclusion that what is in French described as "technico-commercial" engineers are described in English as "Technical Sales Engineer".

Do you think this is accurate?
Could you suggest a better job title/description?

Finding this key word has been a very difficult task, and it is so important when looking for a job. Finding the equivalent can be really hard, and I am not sure I have found it yet.

Thank you for your useful remark, and I hope with your engineering background you can help me in identifying what job title/key word best describes my position.

Thanks for your invaluable help!

Cheers,
Sylvain


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Old 04-23-2010, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phiber View Post
Hi Wanderer,

Thank you so much for your quick reply! I really appreciate it!
It's a pretty good summary of my options you've done here, and I am in fact also looking for employment in parallel to trying to get a visa.

However one point has attracted my attention:



It seems that you question how genuine are my intentions to become a Sales Engineer, which I can understand given the differences in education structures between countries. Maybe Sale Engineer is not the right term to describe my intentions, and it would be an invaluable help if you could maybe suggest a better description or job title for what I do.

As opposed to Australia, and I guess other countries, in France all engineers have a Master level. Engineering studies are 5 years long (after high school) and there is no intermediate qualification between the time you join your first year after high school and the time you graduate after 5 years. So in France, in engineering, undergrad simply does not exist. It is becoming increasingly common for engineering graduates to pursue further studies (about 20% of my class did it). It usually takes the form of a 1 year course either in a specific engineering field or in management/business related formations.
It's pretty much what i did except that instead of a year, it was 1.5 years in Australia, that i decided to extend for a semester.
The reason why students tend to increasingly do that is because it's becoming more and more difficult to get a job as "simply" an engineer in France and because what we call "technico-commercial" engineers are massively looked for.
"Technico-commercial" engineers are people that combine advanced technical skills with business related skills. They are typically in contact with customers, proposing products, establishing quotes, proposing tailored technical solutions and negotiating commercial contracts. Those people need to have advanced technical skills and must have an in depth knowledge of the company's products . This is because they have to be able to discuss technical details with customers (which purely business people cannot do) and to propose feasible technical solutions together with costs. As you accurately underlined, engineers often undergo business related tasks whether it's negotiations, managerial based tasks or deal with economy related issues.

From my research, I have come to the conclusion that what is in French described as "technico-commercial" engineers are described in English as "Technical Sales Engineer".

Do you think this is accurate?
Could you suggest a better job title/description?

Finding this key word has been a very difficult task, and it is so important when looking for a job. Finding the equivalent can be really hard, and I am not sure I have found it yet.

Thank you for your useful remark, and I hope with your engineering background you can help me in identifying what job title/key word best describes my position.

Thanks for your invaluable help!

Cheers,
Sylvain
I do it seems owe you something of an apology for our Sales engineer role here is far less than what you describe and though I have known of qualified engineers here in Australia [ and have even considered it myself at times ] that have followed something of a technical support/sales path career in relation to very specialised equipment, generally speaking the sales engineers roles are less technical and many situations exist that see trades people aspiring in that direction as a way of growing their future and that is also not to bemean trades people either.

Technical Sales Engineer is a title that does get used to some extent in Australia and perhaps limited opportunities in France is because of what also happens in Australia and that is the demise of our manufacturing industries through more offshore manufacturing in lower labour cost countries and the economy of mass production and proximity to markets.
That being the case, as manufacturing diminishes so does research and development, there being more limited opportunities and for manufacturing, our local auto industry is probably the mainstay of development activities and even that will probably have future limitations as the Auto industry heads more and more towards globalised vehicles.

There will still remain engineering activity associated with end user requirements development, be it with products of overseas design base and then add ons for mining, heavy haulage, agriculture industries for instance.
I had limited experience in such areas and another title term that comes to mind is product or product support engineer and to some extent the way our industries have been structured is that whereas Sales Engineers may be initial point of contact with customers, often dealing with customers on existing products or making them aware of new products that could interest them, where there is feedback on product performance and or technical enquiries re improvements desired and/or application of new products, that is where a product engineer may get involved at an engineering level with customers and so economics as well as engineering principles would be addressed.

It can be a grey or flexible area for positions can vary depending on qualifications and technical ability of people making customer contact just as much as it will on the structure of companies, their import Vs local manufacture capacity but particularly where International equipment companies are involved I'd suspect there will be back up technical expertise in the form of product design/applications people and for what you describe something like Product Engineer or Product Support Engineer is probably a more apt title but titles can be confusing or irrelevant when it comes to immigration and it'll be an occupation to be decided by your qualifications that will be your nominated occupation.
For instance if your Masters of Engineering was in Mechanical Engineering, that is the area of engineering you want to seek assessment of qualifications for and nominate as an occupation.

But looking at the bigger picture re project developments etc., if I was you
I'd not be confining myself to products of any particular nature [ unless of course you have a fervent passion for a particular area of engineering ] and keeping my options open, especially in initially seeking employment, sponsorship and immigration if that is the intent for as you're well aware the globe is a competitive place these days and if anything, Australias future and demand for skilled people would seem to be very much tied to resources development and associated infrastructure works.





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Old 04-24-2010, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I do it seems owe you something of an apology for our Sales engineer role here is far less than what you describe and though I have known of qualified engineers here in Australia [ and have even considered it myself at times ] that have followed something of a technical support/sales path career in relation to very specialised equipment, generally speaking the sales engineers roles are less technical and many situations exist that see trades people aspiring in that direction as a way of growing their future and that is also not to bemean trades people either.

Technical Sales Engineer is a title that does get used to some extent in Australia and perhaps limited opportunities in France is because of what also happens in Australia and that is the demise of our manufacturing industries through more offshore manufacturing in lower labour cost countries and the economy of mass production and proximity to markets.
That being the case, as manufacturing diminishes so does research and development, there being more limited opportunities and for manufacturing, our local auto industry is probably the mainstay of development activities and even that will probably have future limitations as the Auto industry heads more and more towards globalised vehicles.

There will still remain engineering activity associated with end user requirements development, be it with products of overseas design base and then add ons for mining, heavy haulage, agriculture industries for instance.
I had limited experience in such areas and another title term that comes to mind is product or product support engineer and to some extent the way our industries have been structured is that whereas Sales Engineers may be initial point of contact with customers, often dealing with customers on existing products or making them aware of new products that could interest them, where there is feedback on product performance and or technical enquiries re improvements desired and/or application of new products, that is where a product engineer may get involved at an engineering level with customers and so economics as well as engineering principles would be addressed.

It can be a grey or flexible area for positions can vary depending on qualifications and technical ability of people making customer contact just as much as it will on the structure of companies, their import Vs local manufacture capacity but particularly where International equipment companies are involved I'd suspect there will be back up technical expertise in the form of product design/applications people and for what you describe something like Product Engineer or Product Support Engineer is probably a more apt title but titles can be confusing or irrelevant when it comes to immigration and it'll be an occupation to be decided by your qualifications that will be your nominated occupation.
For instance if your Masters of Engineering was in Mechanical Engineering, that is the area of engineering you want to seek assessment of qualifications for and nominate as an occupation.

But looking at the bigger picture re project developments etc., if I was you
I'd not be confining myself to products of any particular nature [ unless of course you have a fervent passion for a particular area of engineering ] and keeping my options open, especially in initially seeking employment, sponsorship and immigration if that is the intent for as you're well aware the globe is a competitive place these days and if anything, Australias future and demand for skilled people would seem to be very much tied to resources development and associated infrastructure works.
Hi Wanderer,

Thanks a lot for your detailed reply!
Product engineer and Product support engineer were terms i had never heard of before! So this really great help!
As you said, for immigration purposes, I am gonna to stick to a purely engineering based discipline since anyway there isn't a proper description of my intended occupation.
But when looking for a job, this is going to be very helpful since knowing the right is very important and helpful in finding advertised positions and being found as well.
Thanks again for everything, I really appreciate the time and effort you put in answering my questions!
In case I have further questions I will let you know.

Cheers,
Sylvain


  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04-28-2010, 04:39 PM
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Hi again Wanderer!

How are you doing? I've been good, doing some more research about job titles!

What do you think of Project Engineer to describe the engineering function we were discussing a few days ago ?

Thanks in advance for your precious feedback

Cheers,
Sylvain


  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2010, 01:53 AM
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138 likes received
Quote:
Originally Posted by phiber View Post
Hi again Wanderer!

How are you doing? I've been good, doing some more research about job titles!

What do you think of Project Engineer to describe the engineering function we were discussing a few days ago ?

Thanks in advance for your precious feedback

Cheers,
Sylvain
Project engineer is a regularly used title in Australia and though it does probably get used more in line with infrastructure/resource projects that I had mentioned earlier and that have associated commercial assessments usually of the more broad brush approach [ governments in particular usually having massive financial overruns ], it can also used be in manufacturing and services areas for engineers on new product developments, major maintenance or new plant projects etc.

But you'll not see either project or product engineer listed in A-Z Occupations List - Australian Skills Recognition Information though there is the NEC category and if you go to P you'll see project and product [ion] managers.
For the purpose of immigration your occupation classification comes from that site and will be whatever your engineering discipline is unless you had the experience for a management position.





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